Over the course of the last few years it has become very obvious that Sunday has been working hard on creating reliable and unique products. With every product is an idea, and those ideas have to come from somewhere. With this edition of Product Spec: we catch up with Ben Ward from Odyssey / Sunday to discuss the Model-C. The 24” cruiser made for abuse....
Name: Ben Ward
Location: Austin, TX
Years doing product design/ college education? Assoc. of Science in Computer Aided Drafting. Almost 12 years doing this as a job, several more just growing up.
Years at Odyssey/Sunday? Just had my 4 year anniversary.
The Sunday Model C has been out for a while now, but it seems like it has really been catching on lately. When was the concept thrown out there to put together a 24” that rides like a 20”? Was it your idea, Jim C’s or somebody else’s?
I grew up riding 24” bikes. When I had a 20” for the longest time I would try and set it up like my 24. A few years ago I was given a 24” bike and within the first few weeks on it I had pretty much destroyed all the stock parts. Long story short, frame was the only thing that survived. This was strictly Skatepark riding with no pegs.
When I went to replace the parts there were no real good forks, rims and tires to turn to so that got me thinking about that stuff. Riding the big bike more and more really got me thinking about why a 24 rode like it did. I had already started running regular sized bars on it and that made it feel more and more like a Segway. Sure it felt fine jumping, but I had some ideas that made sense in my head.
Around the time this was going on JC was in town doing some work and the discussion started between him, Chris and myself. JC being stoked on the idea was obviously critical to the process. He believed in experimenting with the geometry, so we went ahead with it.
Making a 24” ride like a 20” was not my design intent at all. I just thought that 20” frames had evolved over the years and a 24” just sat there left behind. We all knew that this bike could feel and ride better, we just had no idea how great it would ride when it came to fruition.
Once you guys had the idea, how long did it take to do the design process? Was it something fairly simple by just making a few changes to a regular BMX frame, or is it something you had to start out from scratch with?
After the green light the stuff went through our normal design process. The frame was pretty straight forward. At the time we were also working on the Model-D trail frame so the overall idea was based on that with the geometry I thought would function the best.
The bars were based off the Forumph bar but scaled down in the rise. They were still about 3” taller than your typical cruiser bar, another experiment.
The final step in the Sunday 24” line was the forks. After measuring several pairs of pre-existing forks, it was very obvious that there was no standard geometry for a 24” fork. Getting this all figured out was key to making sure the frame would feel right. We needed the fork geometry to be perfect since that is the foundation and beginning info to a frame design. Chris and I probably scrutinized the fork geometry and design the most. If we were going to bring back a 24” 41-Thermal fork, it needed to be right.
I feel like this might have taken quite a few prototypes to get it spot on? What were some of the issues that came up that needed changing before the okay to send it to production?
At this point we have the process for frames and parts pretty dialed in. Bars and forks were perfect from the first samples. The frame was pretty dialed. We did the original sample with a 21” top tube. After riding that for a while and feedback from a lot of people via emails and comments on the Sunday site, we decided to do the frame in 21.25 and 21.75, pretty much just shorter and just longer than the typical 24” TT size. We would have kept the 21” but the toe and tire clearance was close and scary sometimes for barspins. The rear end had some more adjustments made based on riding feedback. One more set of samples and we were go for production.
What are some of the unique features of the frame that makes it stand out from any other BMX/Cruiser frame out there besides the geometry?
The frame is full 41-Thermal Chromoly. We took what we learned from the design of the first Sunday frames and applied that to the Model-C. Those design features along with it being full 41-Thermal, have allowed us to make a very strong frame. Add in the 41-Thermal bars and forks to complete the kit, and someone is going to get something that is fun to ride while also being capable of taking a lot of abuse. The normal 41-Thermal lifetime warranty helps too.
Speaking of the geometry how is it possible to make a cruiser that feels like you are riding a regular BMX? Can you take us through a quick walk through of how that all works?
Well first off, I wasn’t trying to create a 24” that rode like a 20”, if that was the case I would just suggest riding a 20”. There is something great feeling about a 24” bike when you ride it, more importantly when you jump it. They are so stable in the air and that stability translates to great confidence in your riding. The more confident you are the faster you go and with the larger wheels speed is not a problem. Who doesn’t love to go fast? I think it was that great sensation that had me hooked on a 24” when I was a kid.
When I got back on the 24” it felt like something was missing. I mentioned before I felt like I was riding a Segway, super tall and rigid. There were some basics of geometry I learned over the years that I felt a big bike could benefit from. First was the top tube length, easy enough. Next was the back end length, again for most, shorter is better. The most important element in the design was the BB height. On most big bikes the BB is even with or even below the axle. This puts your center of gravity so low in the bike, great if you want to haul ass down a hill, not so great if you want to launch a gap at the bottom of that hill. I just scaled up the BB height like the rest of the bike had. Instead of the BB being at 0 to the Axle, we pushed it to +1.75 of the axle, purely based on the Sunday Wave Geometry. Once we received our samples, built them and rode them for the first time I was very happy to see that the experiment worked out. The bike felt exactly like I hoped it would and I have never popped out of a quarter so happy. I was like a little kid and I couldn’t wait for others to take the ride.
Now that it has been in production for a while, how has the response been to it so far? I figure it caters to the older guys in BMX over the younger kids.
We certainly did not set out to make an “old man bike.” Our intentions were to just make something fun that any one might be in to. I know a lot of the current young generation of riders have never seen a 24” without gears and a front shock. Most think that the 24” bike got its start on the mountain. When I take some time to give them the history, they get excited and can’t wait to take the thing for a spin. After all, isn’t bigger better now a days?
I definitely think people have heard more from older guys and dads that were stoked to finally have a machine they could ride and have fun on while riding with their kids. I simply think their excitement, just like me after that first ride, of feeling like a kid again has them enthusiastic to share their story. Also, who doesn’t want to show off some rad pictures you just shot out shredding.
What are the color and size options available? Will there be any color changes or additional sizes added as time goes on?
21.25” and 21.75” Green, Silver and Black Magic That is the line up for now, not too sure what the future plans are seeing as it is all still pretty new.
Have there been any issues with frames or bars and forks made for the Model C since its release? What kind of a warranty situation does this come with?
I haven’t heard of any issues from Jim, and like I mentioned earlier, the frame, fork and bar all feature the 41-Thermal lifetime warranty.
Sunday has been working pretty hard on getting a complete line going including the Model C. When will those be available? Has it been catching the attention of shops or distributors that don’t carry BMX?
The Model-C completes should be hitting shops as early as March. The response has been great, and I know JC has been getting asked for them since the day he showed the frame. I think it is a lot easier for someone to get back into riding when they can just pick up a nice complete bike. With as nice as completes are these days’ people know they will be getting something that can actually be ridden.
Off the topic of the Model C a little bit. I noticed the Model D has a similar look but in regular BMX geometry. Did the Model C have any influence on you guys doing a basic straight forward Model D trails frame also?
The Model-D was already in development when the Model-C talk came up. For the Model-D we knew some of the guys wanted a good straight-forward frame for trails. With experience gained from previous frame designs and with some input from the guys the Model-D is what we came up with. This frame also had some geometry experimentation with the longer backend, higher BB and the mellower head tube angle.
We didn’t want to go crazy on the Model-C so starting with the ideas behind the D and plugging in the new proportions and geometry seemed like the best way to go.
How has the reaction to that frame been? Is it strictly designed for the trails riders or is it something that can handle the street and park abuse?
The Model-D is not as ideal as a Wave frame for street use, but it can hold its own for sure.
Outside of these two projects, is there anything you can let us in on that you are cooking up next now that Jim C is in the Austin office, or does that require a certain security clearance?
I know right now the complete bike line is the primary focus for Jim. Seeing as it is Sunday’s first step into the complete market we know that people have high expectations for the brand and we’re going to always aim to deliver the best possible product for a reasonable price. As far as security clearance goes, a mess of drinks and a night a Shakespeare’s is a good start. As far as the Austin office there is just a lot of settling-in ahead of us and a month of war games to draw up new plans.
Being a designer I’m sure you spend a fair amount of time checking out what other brands have to offer. What are some of the other brands you are into these days?
It’s funny, that would probably be the case 4 years ago when I started working here. I know a lot of that was because that’s what I had always done. I always needed to see what people had going on. Over time, the work load dictates how much time you get to spend on the net just checking out other companies. I can only look at a project for so long during the day, so I end up spending what time I get these days to reading stories, checking out photos and watching random videos. Honestly with twitter, I spend even less time online. If something isn’t tweeted, does it really exist?
There are a few brands I tend to pay a little more attention to, strictly from the angle of being fan. Federal is one of the companies I have enjoyed a lot since their “rebirth.” Their branding is super consistent and their web presence is real strong. Helping out friends like Bruce Crisman and now Dwatts never hurt either. I have only briefly met Chris from Federal, between that and a few tweets here and there and he seems like a legit guy, kudos. Gaz and Joe (when you find him) at Mutiny are both great people. I really like what they have done with one of the older companies in the game. The team is super fresh and their videos just get better and better. Seeing firsthand how tight their team is and how great a person Gaz is makes it really hard not to be a fan of this crew.
Is there anything I missed that you would like to say?
No sir, I think we got it all.
-Ben
Odyssey BMX - Cerritos, CA
OTX Design - Austin, TX
Sunday Bikes - Austin, TX
